Wow, you really screwed that comparison up… Here, let me break it down for you:

You can only enter his house while his phone service is active. How does that sound?

Or, better yet, here is another (very realistic) scenario:

Step 1: Patrick buys a house with a lock.
Step 2: Patrick wants to enter his newly bought house.
Step 3: Patrick cannot do so.
Step 4: Patrick calls the construction company.
Step 5: Patrick finds out that it is not a common problem and “most people can enter their houses just fine.”
Step 6: A few weeks later, after enough people complain, the builder acknowledges the issue and begins “working on it.”
Step 7: A few more weeks go by and it is announced that the issue is caused by the fact that the builder’s offices in Prague were spray-painted by anarchists. Cleaning them up will take a few months.

Meanwhile, people with missile launchers, bricks and energy swords enter Patrick’s house at will. He, however, cannot because his name is on the deed.

I disagree. I liked the comparison I used.

“You can only enter his house while his phone service is active. How does that sound?”

If I didn’t like that deal I wouldn’t buy/rent the house in the first place.

Agreed. That is why many people, myself included, are boycotting games with intrusive and demeaning DRM.

Now, my problem isn’t with the fact that you are not bothered by DRM. Unless it already caused you major annoyances (or if you have very strong principles) you have no reason to dislike it, and I understand that. What irritates me is that you seem to imply that people who do complain are nothing but whiners and that they don’t have a leg to stand on.

Yes, the companies have the right to put DRM in their games. It’s stupid for a lot of reasons and it doesn’t get the job done, but they do have the right. That, however, doesn’t merit a dismissal of those who complain over this decision. Their complaint is entirely and thoroughly valid because as honest, paying customers they have been inconvenienced in a very serous way. The like the product, but certain conditions make the use of that product impossible or very difficult. That is a legitimate grievance and hey are bringing it to the vendor’s attention. They too are well within their right to do so.

Then of course there is an issue of you not getting the facts straight. You write: “If I steal a game, I would have to worry about the DRM in order to play it. If I legally purchase a game I will never have to worry about the “evil” DRM.” That is factually incorrect. Here’s the real deal:

Those who download a pirated copy of the game DO NOT have to worry about DRM, because it had been stripped out. And no, you don’t need to be a hacker to use that version. A hacker is involved at some point, but by the time Joe Blow downloads the game, it’s ready to run.

Those who buy the game legally DO have to suffer the DRM. They get limited installations. They must be online at all times. They get harmful software installed on their computers without so much as notifying them. They must keep the DVD in the drive. They need to register an account on publisher’s site. They will get banned for using a cheat code in single player game. They will have their entire collections erased with no explanation and no option for appeal, etc.

And those with the pirated versions will just be playing in the mean time.

Now, I’m not advocating piracy. You know my stance on it, and I think I argued against it more so than anyone else here. And yet… yet I see all too well why a person – who might otherwise be willing to pay – would opt for a cracked copy.

True, you have the choice to not buy the game. It’s people who already paid for the game expecting to be able to play it when they want and can’t because of issues with the DRM. However, people pirating the game who were playing it a week before launch never have to worry about DRM. I think maybe it would be more like buying a new luxury car with a remote access security system. Something goes haywire and you can’t even unlock it. But you see some guy driving the same type of car he just stole with no problems because he disabled the security system.

Some people refused to buy the last Splinter Cell because of DRM, I like the series so I bought it and had no problems. However if I had bought a game, especially a brand new one at $60 I would feel pretty upset if I knew I couldn’t play it because of a DRM issue. Knowing full well that thousands of people who didn’t pay a thing were playing already.

Anyway, my point is that why screw paying customers with ineffective DRM when it does nothing to stop people from stealing it? If there really was an effective way of preventing piracy then use it. Unfortunately it usually ends up being nothing but a minor inconvenience to pirates, and sometimes a major one for paying customers.

So… We pretty much said the same thing at the same time. Anywho, a PS to my last post. I agree with Patrick in principle but disagree with the practice as it stands.

@Alaric – Your tearing apart of Patrick’s analogy and reassembling it to clearly fit your point of view only showcases your desperate attempts to redeem the old school days of SAME DAY WAREZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is no way to manage a multi-billion dollar a year marketplace. Pick and chose what games you want to buy by which DRM philosophy they subscribe to, but you are certainly in the minority and the DRM philosophy that will win out will be the one that yields the highest profit margin and protects the IP.

“Yes, the companies have the right to put DRM in their games. It’s stupid for a lot of reasons and it doesn’t get the job done, but they do have the right.”

You know by and large DRM makes it impossible for someone just to make a copy of a disc. In your world of no DRM, companies would not even be able to employ this basic technology since you have deemed it as stupid. Honestly your choice of words here is very telling to your true feelings about DRM. Your arguments supporting your views boils down to ‘because I said so’, so I am not feeling a great deal of intellectual prowess has been used in forming of this philosophy. You seem to be one of the many hive-minded FREETARD drones that doesn’t understand the basic concepts of a free market society.

“Their complaint is entirely and thoroughly valid because as honest, paying customers they have been inconvenienced in a very serous way. The like the product, but certain conditions make the use of that product impossible or very difficult. That is a legitimate grievance and hey are bringing it to the vendor’s attention. They too are well within their right to do so.”

Yeah but when a customer ships me a product and it breaks in shipping, my complaint about that is valid, but does that mean that all companies should stop shipping products out? NO. You trying to hold a company hostage over complaints of a scant few. Go ahead google some DRM nightmare that effected millions I still say the paying consumers who have been effected by DRM negatively are very few and far between, and the vast majority of DRM woes were issues with the early adopters and a lack of laws pertaining to computers.

“Then of course there is an issue of you not getting the facts straight. You write: “If I steal a game, I would have to worry about the DRM in order to play it. If I legally purchase a game I will never have to worry about the “evil” DRM.” That is factually incorrect. Here’s the real deal:

Those who download a pirated copy of the game DO NOT have to worry about DRM, because it had been stripped out. And no, you don’t need to be a hacker to use that version. A hacker is involved at some point, but by the time Joe Blow downloads the game, it’s ready to run.”

So we should remove all DRM throw the baby out with the bathwater because 3%-5% of the population knows how to subvert the process? You don’t think the companies are savy enough at times to know WHO has subverted the DRM process? You do not think that DRM subversion has lead to more and more robust DRM?

You won’t be happy until all software is some sort of cloud that you have NO ownership of, because I can tell you if DRM fails that’s what it’s going to boil down to. You like a game you will pay a monthly fee for it and you will have no choice, and you will have no disc to copy. How you like them DRM Apples?

“Those who buy the game legally DO have to suffer the DRM. They get limited installations. They must be online at all times. They get harmful software installed on their computers without so much as notifying them. They must keep the DVD in the drive. They need to register an account on publisher’s site. They will get banned for using a cheat code in single player game. They will have their entire collections erased with no explanation and no option for appeal, etc.”

Boo hoo hoo hoo – leaving the game in the DVD Drive! HOW DARE THEY!
Boo hoo hoo hoo – I have to stay online all the time with my always connected Internet? HOW DARE THEY!
Boo hoo hoo hoo – I have to register online! HOW DARE THEY! (never mind that most warranties for products require the same thing).

The whole Harmful software thing I believe started and died with Sony. There was so much backlash about that it certainly did not become a DRM method of choice.

SO Alaric I ask you, pretend you are the CEO of EA. What do you do to make people stop stealing your software?

Since you are the negative DRM expert can you name for me any one corp in the last year that has used root kit style DRM like Sony did in the 90s?

At the end of the day DRM protects IP’s from being violated from non-hacker types. So for 95% of the population DRM is very effective in preventing them from turning into pirates. Companies can’t make piracy as easy as Copy D: E: otherwise if they went to court against someone who violated their IP they would have little legal leg to stand on since they didn’t take any active roles in protecting their IP.

Life in Alaric’s world…

Step 1: Alaric buys a house with no lock.
Step 2: Alaric wants to enter his newly bought house.
Step 3: Alaric cannot do so.
Step 4: Alaric is filled with vagrants, rats and homeless people, there is a pungent smell of urine in the air and Alaric thinks this is odd because he never paid for the urine.
Step 5: Alaric comes to his senses realizing you can’t just let anyone do whatever they want to YOUR house and buys a lock, installs a moat and hires and armed guard.

Two reasons why I quit PC gaming and turned completely to consoles for gaming.

1: Tired of constantly having to shell out money for upgrades.
2: DRM

No console game has ever made me have to use a 3 tiered code wheel to play it, or look up the 5th word of the 2nd paragraph on page 9 of the manual. Those where some of the olden day methods, a hugh pain in the rear but no real harm. The stuff they do today like stealth installation of always of always on software running in the background is just plain wrong.

Sorry, but I have to agree with Alaric. I truly feel DRM hurts consumers FAR more than it has ever hurt thieves and pirates.

Tom, DRM idiocy isn’t a reason to give up PC gaming.

There are plenty of excellent games that don’t require you to compromise your convictions. I am doing just fine not buying Ubi’s games. I don’t feel that I’m missing out at all. And yes I find myself being quite happy and entertained.

Now, I did have some of these games given to me for review. For example I have a copy on MW2 on Steam, although I would have never even considered buying it. Still, in all honesty I feel that if it wasn’t given to me, I’d be just fine without it. There is so much stuff out there, that even if I quit my job and just played what I wanted to play – I’d still not be able to play it all.

Patrick i noticed your wrote “If I steal a game, I would have to worry about the DRM in order to play it. If I legally purchase a game I will never have to worry about the “evil” DRM.” ..

Now thats just flat out incorrect. There are FAR to many games out there with forms of drm that flat out break and make many titles unplayable . The REALLY sick part of this is, more often than not Scene group Cracks are the fastest. and best solution to get your Legitimate Game running the way it should. and I really have a hard time believing the Bean counters at EA or Ubisoft etc Give a rats ass about that once they have my money .
My Game collection is Truly massive .
Since doom ive been an avid Fan of PC gaming and a major contributor to the industry with thousands and thousands of Dollars spent and more To come im sure. My Solution collection for running them all in the best possible performing way is getting pretty massive as well .

While i dont Hate steam , i use it as little as possible now and i certainly dont buy online.. I like my manuals, posters and most Of all.. MY hardcopy of the game . and there are the issues when internet goes down and Steams offline mode Completely fails . That being said. every other form of internet connection DRM ive had the displeasure of using has Failed me at one time or another. Never worry ??? Only if i have a REAL solution to my problem.

Darthdiggler , If i was The Ceo of a major GAME company and i sold GAMES . I would worry less about pirates that arent even part of my Target market share and more about satisfying my customers. Developing relationships with my customers and Spending my Investment capital on Research and development and production of the aforementiond Games. Piracy is going to happen period .
No matter what My product is going to be hacked, and then torrented to death over the internet {assuming its not a piece of shit } I can understand a model such as activation decryption on original installs during launch of a new Title, or product keys that are printed over all those manuals on my shelf . Sure.. Its even an opportunity to make a connection with my customer and learn how to have a better relationship so they come back and buy more games off me in the future .

This is NOT what is happening with todays DRM . To me as a consumer its quite the opposite.. Another reason ill never play Assassins Creed 2 for eg . When i pay for, and Validate my Game i want to play it wherever and whenever I want.. I dont want to feed a massive Market system that is more about making money than Acutal Games..
As Far as your comment on naming a company that has used a root kit in the last few years ??
I submit to you sir that Constant connection DRM is Rootkit Par exellence . along with these new massive forms of it that include your Credit card and other personal information such as Battlenet and steam etc . Incredibly valuable information for all kinds of different reasons.
At the end of the Day modern DRM does nothing but create another problem for a large portion of todays Legitimate “non hacker type” consumers.. Wich of course is the Target market share in the first place of people who already have NO intention of stealing something they didnt pay for .

This of course is just My opinion and my only real voice in the mess is my Wallet . Goodbye Ubisoft. {and others}

Ahh my beloved PC gaming.. Shes not dead oh no. but shes got one Hell of a Dose.

Wow / / SO this Thread is Dead ?? I thought people cared about the subject.